Self-improvement is one of most easily accessible pillars of success for every sales professional who is serious about managing their career growth. On this episode of Coach The Sale, we delve into ways to incorporate the culture of sales coaching into not only your office, but to your mindset as well.
My guest is Pete Evans, Managing Director at Ventas. Pete has been responsible for coaching sales professionals from startups to major global players, and is an authority on teaching people best practices for investing time into improving themselves.
In this episode we cover:
Find Pete on LinkedIn
Matt: Pete Evans, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing?
Pete: I'm great [inaudible 00:00:04], thanks so much for inviting us to be part of the podcast series.
Matt: Fantastic. Great to have you on. Today's episode is all about sales coaching culture and mindset. Before we get into some of the detail around that, tell us a little bit more about Ventas and a bit about your background as a sales coach.
Pete: Yes, Ventas works with ... primarily with owner managed businesses that are looking to grow sales. Our clients range from startups with investors that are looking to hire their first sales person, right up into the global space. Our focus is on helping the sales manager become a super coach so they can help drive performance in their sales teams. We are a UK partner of Objective Management Group, so we use their tools to identify some of the challenges that the companies are facing in growing sales, and one of the key things that we find is that sales managers and sales leaders are not spending enough time invested and actually coaching their sales people.
Matt: Fantastic. Are you working then primarily with people who've been promoted into role, or people who've been recruited? What's the typical background of some of the people that you're working with day to day?
Pete: Some of the people are new into a sales management or a sales leadership role. Some of them have sort of ... when I say they're experienced, they've been a sales manager for a number of years. And so it's a wide range of experience that we're dealing with. So as an example, this morning I was with a sales manager, new into sales management, leading a team of eight sales people. The other day I was with somebody who'd been 20 years in sales management, so it can really vary.
Matt: Fantastic. So Pete, you mentioned that you work with organizations of different sizes. From your perspective, why do you think a sales coaching culture is important for nowadays, in today's current businesses? Why not just leave sales reps up to it, and a little bit like animal farm, let the strongest ... let the weak die off and the strongest rise to the top? Why have a sales coaching culture in the first place?
Pete: Matt, I think that's a great question to start with. I'm a keen follower of success in sports, and if you look at the best people in sport, whether in individual sports like athletics, golf, cycling, although cycling is a team sport as well [inaudible 00:02:36] to teams, they all have coaches to help them improve. Working on skills, working on mindsets that would improve, and I think it's really important. It's not just about helping the people who are not performing as well as they should be, it's also ... coaching is also about helping your top performers get even better as well.
Pete: So I think it's really important that the sales coaching culture is [inaudible 00:03:03] right from the top of the organization, and that the board of directors or the sales leaders allow their sales managers the time to coach effectively. I think one of the challenges that organizations are facing is the sales managers don't have the skills to coach their teams effectively. So I think bringing that sales coaching culture where it's not just a conversation by the [inaudible 00:03:28] company, but the sales manager's investing at least 50% of his time coaching his team on a consistent basis.
Matt: So let's distinguish then between sales management and sales coaching. Because from my perspective, what I've seen here, I have a hunch I think that sometimes people will often call what they do sales coaching, but largely it's because it's sort of current buzz term, when in reality if you look at what they actually do, it's probably more like a traditional sales management role under a different name.
Matt: From you perspective, where's the difference? How can you distinguish between sales management and sales coaching.
Pete: That's another great question. So from my experience, when I worked in a corporate sales environment and would have a weekly one to one with my sales manager, that was all about going through the figures, so we would just look at the numbers I was bringing in, the number of sales I was bringing in, the revenue that was generating for my employer. And there was no discussion about how we could improve. So I think that management is all about looking at the figures, the direction of travel, but it's not focused on improving individual skillsets.
Pete: Coaching is about helping the individual grow and develop, equipping themselves with new skills. Coaching can take a variety of forms. It can be challenging somebody's pipeline, going through what's in the pipeline, we use an expression about holding the salesperson's feet to the fire. I must emphasize that's not literally, but it's driving the accountant's ability, because we find a lot of salespeople and sales managers have bloated pipelines. And so they're misreporting [inaudible 00:05:20]. But more important, it's actually the sales manager accompanying salespeople on calls, listening in to calls, recordings of calls and all that stuff. A lot of the work the [inaudible 00:05:33] do with their clients.
Pete: So actually the salesperson can understand what best practices, and also coaching can involve things like role playing, prospective calls or prospective meeting. So one of the things I was doing this morning with a client is we were role playing the one to ones with his team. So coaching is about getting the salespeople to practice as well. Management is about focusing on maybe some of the historical things that have happened in terms of performance, coaching is about helping your salespeople improve, and get to the next level of performance and breaking through those barriers.
Pete: And lastly, coaching is also about helping salespeople deal with some of the mindset issues we see with a lot of salespeople, and sales managers as well.
Matt: Yeah, we're going to come onto mindset, I think later on in the call. Before we do, what are some of the first steps to developing that sales coaching culture? If somebody's starting from a standing start, how can they get moving towards developing that type of culture within their organization?
Pete: There are many aspects to obviously developing that sales culture in an organization. But there's sort of a clear starting point for actually getting started, it's rather in actually rushing in, you've got to get ... the sales manager has to get the team engaged with the process. And one way of getting the team engaged with the process is maybe to run a mini workshop or as part of a sales team meeting, and just identify some of the barriers to success, some of the things that could be getting in the way of the success. It could be the way they feel about the economy, we're all talking about the impact of Brexit. Apologies for mentioning the B word, Matt. It could be to do with marketing, it could be [inaudible 00:07:24]. But really it's just get all those things written down, the things that are getting in the way.
Pete: But as we know from being a partner of Objective Management Group, 80% of success in sales is down to mindset. And one of the things we see time and again with salespeople and sales managers is excuse making, or lack of responsibility for their own choices. So when you can get ... you can create a culture where salespeople feel comfortable asking for help, that's a key thing. Where they feel that they can receive candid feedback, and you've got to create that culture where feedback is a two way process, where the sales manager can give a salesperson feedback, and the salesperson give their sales manager feedback about their performance. Because although sales is an individual role, you are all part of a team, and can help each other.
Pete: So I think that's a really good starting point if your budget is limited. If you've got more budget you could take an exercise in evaluating the skills and competencies in your sales team. Because again one thing that you need to know is are your salespeople coachable? You've got to break down the resistance to coaching. And also I think some peoples' experience of coaching isn't coaching, it's more being told what they need to do.
Pete: It's more directive, and if I may share a story with you from my corporate sales background, I had a sales manager who said to me, "Pete, if you did two more sales a week, imagine how much bigger your bonus will be," so I had no idea what really motivated me. So I think it's important that up front, a sales manager or sales leader invests time in really understanding what motivates each individual in that team, because you can't coach everybody the same way, and you can have a framework where you need to adapt that framework to each individual.
Pete: And I think like anything in sales, the sales manager has to sell in both what the outcomes of the coaching are going to be, and they've got to commit to doing it consistently, and this is one of the things that we find when we're working with clients, is the sales managers will cancel coaching sessions with their sales team because they'll say, "Oh, something important came up." While actually coaching should be the most important thing that a sales manager does during the course of the week. But often you'll hear, "Well, a big opportunity came up and I've also got my own targets to meet." And coming back to creating the culture, it's down to the organization to help create that culture, and not have sales managers having an individual target, because then you get a conflict of interest.
Matt: So then I'm interested in particular around this idea of the coach. The sales manager is the sales coach, how important, from your perspective, is the mindset of the individual coach? And in particular the flexibility? Because I see it as somebody may be leading a team, and within that team they will have people with different motivations, different learning styles, different aspirations, how important is behavioral flexibility as a sales coach? And, because I know you're probably going to say it's very important, what are some of the things that they can do to maybe self reflect or improve on that flexibility?
Pete: I would say that it's more than very important, I think it's essential that you understand different learning styles, you understand that some people learn ... visual learners, some people are auditory, and some people like to read things, some people like to participate. I think you've got to be flexible. Some people, I think as my coach sometimes says, you can give them a kick, and their response [inaudible 00:11:19] a good kicking, not a physical kicking obviously. Some people you need to put their arm round them and practically give them a bit of a hug and tell them that it's going to be okay. So you've got to understand how you can use those different motivational styles. Coaching is about working with the individual to get them to work out some of their own solutions, some of it's about giving feedback as well. So I think being a great coach, I think you've got to be constantly reflecting on your own performance and what has worked well and evaluate your own performance, because then you create that culture and also that mindset with your team where they will want to learn because they realize that you're open to feedback as well.
Pete: And I think that's essential, the coach has to reflect on their own performance when a coaching session hasn't gone as well with one of their team.
Matt: Do you have any suggestions as to how they can do that? Ideas, tips, frameworks that they can start to use? Having listened to this on the commute into work they're motivated to try and reflect on their own practice, is there anything that you can suggest that they do in order to develop that self awareness?
Pete: Yeah, I think there's three key things you can do, and I think get people are motivated to want to do something about it. I think when you're doing coaching sessions, it's really important at the end of a coaching sessions, and this is a technique that I've learned from somebody else, but what we use is a technique called win, learn, change. So ask the person you're coaching what is their big win from today's coaching session. The second thing is what's their biggest learning point, or takeaway from today's coaching session. And the third thing is what is the coachee, the person you're coaching, going to change in the next seven days. And get the person you're coaching to write those things down, and then send you an email following the coaching sessions.
Pete: But also take the opportunity for the person you're coaching to give you some feedback as well. Just say, "What's the one thing that I could change in the next coaching session with you? What could I do differently to improve these sessions?" So as a coach, constantly be asking for feedback, and write that down, that's a really great framework to add some value to each of your coaching sessions.
Pete: I think when you've been doing coaching, often the temptation is, okay, well I'll start my first coaching session at 9:00, my next one's at 10:00, and you don't take a break. Building a 10 minute break between each coaching session so that you've got time to reflect. Record coaching sessions, as well, with people. And then if you've got somebody coaching you, ask somebody else to listen in to your coaching sessions. So as part of what we do, we record ... in our team we record coaching sessions and we're listening to each other, so we can give each other feedback on what's working well, where we could improve. So [inaudible 00:14:32] building that framework of asking feedback.
Pete: The third tip I would give, we talk a lot about not only developing a coaching culture, but developing a learning culture. So if you're coaching your people and you want them to improve, and you want to empower them, encourage them to read around sales, read around mindset. So the last tip I would give is lead by example, and start reading more about sales and what's current in sales and sales coaching best practice. And then encourage your people to read. So one thing we do is we, on our website, we publish what we're currently reading as a team, in terms of sales, or there's loads of great content out there also, videos on YouTube and other stuff that you can keep up to date on what's current in terms of sales and sales coaching.
Matt: Yeah, some really great tips there, and I'll put some other tips and ideas in the show notes. I think audiobooks is certainly something, I'm a huge consumer of audiobooks on platforms like Audible and Blinkist-
Matt: I think they're a really great resource as well, especially if you're not keen a reader in the traditional sense, I think audiobooks are a really great way to do that. So I'll ... yeah, send me some of your top suggestions after the call and we'll add those into the show notes, that would be fantastic.
Pete: Yeah, and another thing which is free ... listening to other podcasts, reaching out to other sales specialists and ask their opinion. On LinkedIn, for example, there's a great resource, people are posting discussions, discussions about sales, sales coaching. I know one of your team, Richard Smith, is very active on sharing discussions, getting involved in discussions and reach out to these people.
Matt: So I've got a question, if we circle back just a little bit around the coach themselves, my hunch, my inclination is that if somebody were fairly new to coaching, and they coached a member of the team and the team member gave them feedback, some people would take that quite personally and maybe not necessarily in a positive way, particularly if that sales coach has been a top performer for a very long time, feels that they know a lot about sales and probably rightly so. But how do you work with a coach who hears that feedback, in some cases for the first time, and takes it personally, and is almost sort of challenging it? Because who's this person to tell me what to do? I know what I'm doing, I've proven myself. How do you manage that, that sort of resistance to getting feedback from somebody less senior than you?
Pete: Another great question, Matt, and I think feedback as a human being, you know, aside of the sales leader, is one of the most difficult things to receive as a human being. We don't like receiving ... I use the word criticism lightly, but often feedback can be perceived as criticism. I think it's really important that whoever is giving you feedback frames it, because actually I view feedback as a gift. If somebody has taken the time to give me some feedback, it's important that I listen to that feedback, as long as its given context, and somebody is able to back it up with evidence. I think that's a key thing.
Pete: And I think that even if at first you don't agree with the feedback, I think it's important just to reflect on the feedback and think, "Okay, if Matt, for example, is giving me some feedback about my performance or the way that I handled a particular call with a prospect, or a meeting, it's because he cares and what I'm going to do is take the time to reflect on it, and if I can go and improve one thing in the next meeting, I'm going to get a much better response from that prospect."
Pete: And I think another important point is we meet lots of salespeople who've been in sales for a long time, and think they know everything there is to know about sales, and when we say, "Okay, what's the potential amount of business you could generate in your territory?" They then explain that they've probably got a quarter, a half percent of the potential revenue in that territory, you can then challenge back and say, "So do you really know everything about sales then? Because if you did, surely you'd be getting a lot more than quarter, half of 1% of the the total revenue potential of that territory [inaudible 00:19:08].
Pete: So I think it's about you reframe it. Does that answer your question?
Matt: Yeah, it definitely does, I think sometimes ... I think you're right, sometimes our pre ... I think sometimes we hear the feedback as criticism when it should be heard as feedback. And sometimes if it is criticism we take that quite personally. And I think it's separating out what's being said ... it's discussion about the content of the coaching, and not about you as an individual. I think that's a nice distinction to make, is that it's just about the coaching that's been delivered.
Matt: And also that the person giving that feedback may or may not be right, they may not be correct. But for the greater good, work with it, roll with it, and rather than try and conflict against it.
Pete: Yeah, and I think if I lean this back to earlier on when you were talking about creating a sales culture, part of that sales culture is creating that framework and that culture where people are open, and they can candidly give each other feedback about problems. I think one of the challenges and you guys will see this at [inaudible 00:20:20] as well, is that we don't have that consistent culture in organizations, of giving candid feedback. And often reviewing performance ... it doesn't happen consistently. So coaching is about being able to give people consistent feedback about the things they're doing and need to improve, getting the individual to work out solutions. But if you look at team sports, I'm a big follower of Rugby League, sports teams analyze performance so if a Rugby League team plays on a Sunday, then on Monday they will be in video analysis, and the teams are giving each other feedback about performance, and where things didn't go well. When they dropped the ball, when that pass didn't go through. We're not as brutal in analyzing sales performance yet. But if we were, how much better would performance be?
Pete: So there's a lot I think the sales managers can learn from sports. And coaching in sports is about analyzing performance, and another British cycling team talked about the aggregation of marginal gains is helping people get better, it's often the small things that lead on to bigger performance.
Matt: One of the things that you mentioned at the top of the show, Pete, was the idea of coachability. And the way that you guys can support organizations to assess whether or not a potential candidate is coachable, or the extent to which they're coachable. Can you give us some tips or some thoughts around ways in which listeners can start to identify highly coachable prospects in terms of recruits? Or yeah, other ideas around how can somebody identify somebody who is a strong contender for someone who's coachable, versus somebody who is ... some red flags or warning signs that perhaps they're not going to be particularly coachable moving forward?
Pete: There are two ways that you can obviously assess this. One is through using an evaluation tool, like the Objective Management Group tools, if you've got an assessment tool as part of your process, that may or may not tell you whether they're coachable, if that's one of the competencies that it's measuring.
Pete: Alternatively, if you've not gone down the route of having an assessment tool, what you could do is you could put some questions into your question bank as part of the selection process. So typically, if we're working with a client we put a question bank together so there might be some questions along, "Tell me about the relationship you have with your current sales manager, or your current sales leader. Tell me what grade it looks like in terms of that relationship. How often do you have a one to one with your current sales manager? What things do you go through with them? What do you like about the one to ones that you have? What don't you like?" So again, you're beginning to get a lot of the feel, and if you're getting responses like, "Well, I think one to ones are a waste of time, they don't have any value," you're beginning to build a bit of a picture, because actually, the salesperson you're interviewing may be telling you they don't believe in structure. They don't believe in self improvement.
Pete: Another great question to ask is, "Tell me what was the last book you read about improving yourself?" And I've heard some really strange answers, like, "I know everything there is to know about sales, why would I read anything?"
Pete: Yeah. "I'm already a great salesperson."
Matt: We need that person on the podcast.
Pete: Oh yeah, we've got a whole history of them. So you can build in some simple questions to ask them. "How much time do you invest in developing yourself?"
Matt: Do you guys do anything in terms of the recruitment process? I know here at Refract, what we do, especially in the latter stages when we're looking to take on board a new recruit, is ... one of the things we sometimes when we're looking to take on a new hire is that we will give them a role play of sorts, but get them to identify and analyze a part of a conversation, provide some coaching on that element of the conversation, and then invite them to replay that role play again and see if that learning has been adapted and integrated in what they do.
Matt: Do you any sort of practical exercises, or encourage any of the guys you are recruiting to do anything like that within the recruitment process itself?
Pete: Not as exact as that, but when we are working with clients who are hiring, if there's a second stage, or the clients gotten into the final selection process, we'll encourage them to do some role playing so we can identify some of these things in terms of the individual's coachability, so that is something that we would recommend to clients.
Matt: So Pete, we've talked a lot about sales coaching culture, but also in its sort of infancy, or some of the pitfalls and hurdles of the person who's trying to get a culture up and running, starting to foster that culture within their team. What about the person who's been doing it for some time already, looking to improve, looking to refine? Any thoughts, or ideas, or suggestions on how somebody could level up that process?
Pete: Yeah, certainly, because I think once somebody's got into that stage where they're an effective sales coach, [inaudible 00:25:48] been coaching consistently for 18 months to two years and they want to really raise the bar, I think one of the best things that that coach can do is to get an external coach to help keep them accountable, to help challenge what they're doing with the sales team. Because when you are coaching people, the sales people on a consistent basis, and I think as you know from your own team, it can become challenging, it can become quite mentally and emotionally draining. So having somebody external to coach you, to help you deal with your challenges, can really help you go up a notch.
Pete: It could be somebody in your sales leadership team that could coach you consistently, and better at coaching. But that's a discussion for another interview about the quality of sales leadership and the impact on sales managers. So if you're a sales manager wanting to become a super, super sales coach, my first recommendation would be to engage with an external coach to coach you to better performance yourself, which you can then cascade that skills and knowledge down to yourself. If budget's a challenge, maybe you could engage in some ... be part of a group, become part of a mastermind group if budget's a bit of a restraint for you. Again, a bit like we suggested before with mindset, there's lots of online learning that you can as well.
Pete: Or you could even down the route of getting a certified coach as well, with different accreditations, just if you're developing your own coaching skills specifically away from just sales coaching.
Matt: Yeah, what are some of the challenges that you experience when you're working with somebody who is experienced, but wants to improve? Are there any patterns that you observe over time amongst the coaches that have been doing it a while, but become a little bit maybe stagnant or used to doing things the way they've always done? Are there any common themes amongst those people?
Pete: Yeah, I think it comes back to something that we discussed earlier on in the podcast, in that they've got set in their ways, they've got a way of doing things which is comfortable to them, so it isn't pushing them as a coach, or a sales manager, outside their comfort zone. And once the people they're coaching see through that, they're not driving the levels of performance with their sales team. So you get people in their comfort zone, the only thing that grows in the comfort zone are weeds. So what you need to is it's encouraging those sales managers who are doing a competent job to recognize if they don't change, the competition down the road may be investing in developing their salespeople, and their salespeople and competition are getting better. So you begin to lose market share as well.
Pete: So it's ... again, it's giving context as more experienced sales managers. Now, here's a stat if I may I'd like to share with you about experienced sales managers. And this is come from the data that Objective Management Group done over the last 30 years. The coaching competency of a sales manager with less than five years sales manager experience is only 1% less than a sales manager who's got more than ... who's ... so it's actually 11% higher than a veteran sales manager. So new sales managers tend to have a higher coaching competency than a sales manager with more than 25 years experience.
Matt: Wow. Yeah, I've seen some of that data as well for our MG group, and it blows my mind. It's sort of ... yeah, it's a little bit counterintuitive, you'd expect the expertise to increase at a fairly steady rate through the years, but the data that they're showing it seems not to. What do you put that down to? Do you think people get complacent as they get a certain degree of results, and then there's not necessarily that push to the next summit, they're quite happy on the trajectory that they're on?
Pete: I think part of that is complacency. I think that part of it is that people are constantly wanting people who've worked in their sector to come in join them, so you get ... it's down to the leadership of the organization. It could be that the younger or less experienced sales managers are getting more effective training and coaching, and long serving sales managers are just resting on the laurels. Or it could be that the training and coaching that the organization is receiving is not getting effective training, or no training.
Matt: Or potentially that the reps that are being coached identify more closely with somebody closer in age and experience to them, and therefore they're more receptive to the input and the coaching that they get from someone who in [inaudible 00:31:04] is more like them?
Pete: Yeah, it could be. I think what this boils down to, really, is if the sales manager has got the right mindset, and there's a key word here, growth minded, the sales manager is growth minded, he's going to have more of an impact on his sales people, because he will be reception to coaching, development, and training. And he will lead by example and not be going out into the office saying, "I know it all, what can this external coach tell me about coaching my salespeople?"
Matt: Yeah. So we're just running up on time, Pete. I've got one more question.
Matt: Circling back a little bit towards what we talked about earlier, how do you think sales leaders should deal with resistance among a team to adopting or improving a sales coaching culture?
Pete: Oh, that's a great final question, you saved the best one for last. So in terms of resistance, we do see pushback from salespeople, and a sales manager when the leadership team is wanting to drive though change. Often we get push back, "Well, the figures I'm bringing in are good, I've been with this company for five, 10, 15 years, all my customers love me," that's because there are two types of indicators in sales. One is lagging indicators, and lagging indicators are the financials. So if I brought in say, two, three million pounds of business last year, that's historical, that's what my accountant's interested in. But that's not ... last year's performance isn't a predictor of huge success.
Pete: So the indicators which the leadership team and the sales manager should be focusing on from a coaching perspective are the leading indicators, so the leading indicators are okay, [inaudible 00:33:03] the number of calls you need to be making, the number of meetings you need to be having, the number of discovery meetings, the number of presentations. So it's about changing that culture, because my three million pounds in the business in 2018 could've come from two clients and I could've dropped [inaudible 00:33:22]. Whereas Matt the salesperson might have done a million, but we might have done that consistently, and we're doing the right thing. So we talk ... change the culture so your salespeople are focusing on the right indicators which predict future performance.
Pete: And also, the last point is the salespeople are not used to having the pipeline challenged. And where you get a real change in culture is where the sales manager is challenging consistently what's in the pipeline. So you don't get bloated pipelines, so I know, for example, how many marketing qualified leads I need at the start of my sales process, and what's the lead time between getting a lead at the start of the sales funnel to actually closing it, and analyzing those metrics, and being really rigorous and robust about it.
Matt: Yeah, good advice. I want to circle back though to the resistance. What about in a team though, who are ... they're checking the KPIs, maybe they've got a good performer, but when the person just doesn't seem to buy in to sales coaching, maybe they're a little bit absent mentally, maybe even physically, not there, not turning up. How do you, as a salesman, you're passionate about coaching, you know it has value, but you're working with somebody who may be a middling performer, maybe even a good performer, but they're just not into the sales coaching? What can they do?
Pete: So when we're talking about [inaudible 00:34:55] probably going to ... and average performer, and the average performer isn't into the coaching. I think here from experience, our own experience and also working with clients, it's around the sales manager encouraging and selling in the positive benefits of coaching, and again, encouraging people to ... that person to get outside their comfort zone, because sometimes you find the average performer is actually working really hard, but they're not being as effective, so it's not about getting the salesperson to work any harder, it's getting the salesperson to be more effective with their time. And when you become more effective, you begin to get outstanding results.
Matt: And from your perspective, where does listening to calls come into this? Is that something that you think is vital, can it be done, can coaching be done without it? How much of an impact does listening to the calls, or the conversations, I should say, amongst reps and prospects?
Pete: I think where reps are making calls, I think listening into calls is absolutely essential, and the ability of the sales manager to give feedback about those calls almost as it's happening I think is important. I know obviously with the Refract system that enhances what a sales manager can do with his team, because he doesn't have to listen in to every call. So I think that's really important as well.
Matt: Very good. So, thank you very much for your time, Pete. I've really enjoyed this conversation. We've covered a lot of areas. Give us a sense of what people can do to find out more about Ventas and the work that you guys are doing over there. Yeah, give us some pointers and places where people can go to find out more about you.
Pete: So if people want to see a bit more around the work that we do, they can go to our website, which is www.ventas-sales.com. If people want to connect with me on LinkedIn, then .. I'm Pete Evans, and type in Ventas, you'll be able to get [inaudible 00:37:11] to receive the connection. If they want to know a bit more about the work that we do with the Objective Management Group tool we can let them have a complimentary assessment.
Matt: Superb. [inaudible 00:37:24] love it.
Pete: We're going to put a link at the end of the call, or on the show notes, we can do that for you.
Matt: We will absolutely do that. Pete, I've really enjoyed this conversation, thank you very much for your time, and we'll speak again soon.